Comments on: fall from grace

By: Jim in Rennes

Jim in Rennes — Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:05:10 +0000

My two go to their local Catholic school. The reason for this is less religious (1 agnostic parent and 1 atheist) than convenient. Their previous school was Catholic, but only because the local state school had closed (rural depopulation strikes again). This meant the State funded the Catholic system (oh, the irony!). When the girls moved house with their Mum, we looked at both schools in their new village and as the Catholic one used all the same text books etc, we opted for that. As far as I can tell, the only difference to the curriculum is the chance (not enforced) to follow Catechism classes. We’ve left it up to the kids to decide if they want to do it. Frankly, I made up my own mind and I’m sure they’ll do the same. I agree with the “some people believe…” approach, but I suppose I’d be a bit disappointed if they ended up being conventionally religious…

By: David H

David H — Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:06:23 +0000

I’ve considered myself as an atheist since the age of about 10. For me this means an absence of gods of any description.

There’s no point in being wishy-washy and leaving everything up to your daughter. Do whatever you feel comfy with and explain your own beliefs as much as you feel able to, but make it clear that you’d be very happy if as far as possible she made up her own mind.

Personally, I always went for honesty with our daughter. I cannot abide all the lies that are told about Father Christmas, so I explained all about the myths that surround ‘him’ when she was less than three. That didn’t stop her having just as much fun as other children, looking forward to the celebrations and the general atmosphers of fun and togetherness. Nor did she ‘spill the beans’ to other childen. It spared her finding out one day that we’d systematically lied to her because we thought it’d be good for her.

She’s now at university and I asked her recently if, with hindsight, she’d have preferred not to have been told. She said she didn’t know either way, since she’d known since such a young age, but didn’t think that knowing that Father Christmas was a big fib had taken away any of the fun of Christmas.

As far as the even bigger ‘fib’ is concerned, religion was rarely mentioned at all, any more than fairies at the bottom of the garden, Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. But, strangely, I do now regret that she’s so uninformed about stories from the Bible, as she has a real disadvantage when it comes to literary references that mean nothing to her.

So, on balance, I’d say that it’s worth going through the Bible stories as fairy tales and just deal with any questions that arise in any way you feel comfortable with. I suspect that, in the end, children will always make up their own minds, no matter how much we agonise and whatever we tell them :wink:

By: Emily

Emily — Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:23:26 +0000

:twisted: I too was raised Catholic as a kid (USA) and became an agnostic around age 11, never got confirmed, went on to fiddle with Buddhism, paganism and etc for about 20 years, and now have somehow arrived back at Christianity.
Why? Because out of curiosity I actually started reading the Bible (something I’d never done very extensively as a kid) and found it (particualarly new testament)to be excellent and an eye opener. Also went to various christian churches out of nostalgia, and ended up staying.
But I agree–no one can force anyone.
Many people I know who were never baptized or brought up as anything end up confused, satan worshippers, or just depressed, thinking when they die, they will be dead meat.
Kids seem to like religion–teens seem to disdain it–and many people like me, when they hit their 30s or 40s, end up going back to it with a friendlier eye.
I’d vote towards a non “forcing” religious education in the religion of your choice, and yes, of course she will make up her own mind.
Best of luck!

By: Suziboo

Suziboo — Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:41:13 +0000

I think you can believe in God without necessarily being religious. Churches, or places of worship in general, have little spiritual interest for me personally, I feel that if your do believe in (a) God then you would accept that he(or indeed, she)is everywhere- what is the point of only praying in a church? Since my husband and I are of differing “branches” of Christianity we agreed that we should teach the broader ideals, which as someone pointed out, are common to many faiths, and not worry too much about the details- we both feel that it’s not really important if they go to Sunday school or catechism or whatever else, if they grow up to be tolerant loving human beings then I’ve succeeded as a parent. As someone who believes in God, I will leave it in his hands whether or not they do too. It will happen if it’s meant to.

By: Jason Stone

Jason Stone — Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:12:08 +0000

I really don’t feel qualified to comment on how you should introduce your child to the religions of the world, since I am a recovering Catholic.

But, I would like to comment on your fine taste in american television. “I pity the fool” that did not watch that show. Lieutenant Starbuck aka “Faceman” was my favorite.

I am fascinated by the fact that it was so popular in Britain.

By: Claypot

Claypot — Mon, 29 Nov 2004 05:34:35 +0000

Toughie. I was raised strict Catholic in a repressive Ireland which has led me to be a complete atheist who abhors organised religions. However, I do think that my strongly humanist values must have come from that religious upbringing, as we never had any classes at school that dealt with ‘citizenship’ or philosophy etc. A couple of close friends of mine have just had a baby. Like me they were force fed Catholicism as children and are now atheists. However the vast majority of schools in Ireland are Catholic. They don’t really feel they can marginalise their kid by not allowing her to say prayers, make her First Communion etc, so as a result they are now attending Mass again!

Probably the best thing you can do for Tadpole is as Zinnia says and teach her about a lot of different belief systems. She’ll probably get bored of it all by about age 10 anyway!

By: viktor

viktor — Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:01:32 +0000

Above all the humanist values and some religion’s morals I assume you want your child to be able to grow self-assured and broad-minded. So I think it’s more about answering the existential questions beforehand fostering the child’s imagination (and later her judgement) with strong fiction (tales, then child litterature…).
Highly recommended here is Bruno Bettelheim’s Psychanalyse des contes de fées.

All things considered religion is just ‘supposed to be based on actual events where believing is a prerequisite for faith’, which is only sure to swamp a child’s mind if you want to adlib about Metaphysics for toddlers.

Viktor, who doesn’t need such words as religion or atheism to know where he stands

By: Fabien

Fabien — Sun, 28 Nov 2004 00:09:07 +0000

Well, she’ll ask questions soon enough, and the best answer is probably along the lines of “some people think this, some other think that – And what about you mum? – Me, I really don’t know.”. I think that when children are old enough to ask such questions, they are usually wise enough to understand such answers.

I’m not very comfortable with the idea that one day I’ll have to face such questions from my (future) children. I’m completely atheist, so is their likely mother, but I don’t think we should endoctrinate them with the conclusions we’ve patiently built up for ourselves; rather let them get to their own at their own rythms.

It seems to me that the most important think is to make clear that:
- it’s up to herself only to make up her mind;
- the love and consideration of her parents is off topic there: whatever she believes, doesn’t believe or changes her mind about, will not change the way you love her. Social considerations are a key (the main?) point of religious choices and behavior; don’t unwillingly add your own pressure above it.
- provide her with all “raw data” she might ask for. It seems reasonnable to expect she will ask for them… or I really hope so!

By: Van

Van — Sat, 27 Nov 2004 09:40:21 +0000

I too was forced to do not only the Sunday morning thing, but actively participate i.e. play the violin along with the organ in the C of E etc, along with Friday night ‘youth’ group. Gaah! Due to the forcedness of it all, the moment I left home, I also stopped going. Don’t miss it at all. My hubby’s parents approach was totally different, they took him and his sister around the ages of 13 to different churches, C of E, presbytarian etc and said that they could choose any one of them, or none of them, it was up to them. Needless to say, they chose nothing. Spiritually we are in complete synch with one another. So I wouldn’t stress if I were you – because whatever you choose to do for your child, they will end up making up their own minds anyway.

By: Ruth

Ruth — Sat, 27 Nov 2004 09:33:47 +0000

Yup – agree with all of the above – this is when you almost envy those with a clear and simple view of things! If it works out in France as it does in Ireland, she will do all the Christian things like Nativity plays etc at school. Let it all go by, except for the odd ‘some people think…..’ interjection and bide your time until Tadpole actually starts questioning things. That’s your chance to open up the debate. Taking it easy,and not ‘forcing’ anything down anyone’s throat’ worked for my 2.
One was a ‘devout’ Catholic (I had to go through Baptism, First Holy Communion and Confirmation), before breaking away to cheerful agnosticism; the other was a natural pagan from the word ‘go’.
Result.